Great, thank you very much, Bill, and thank you to everyone for joining us this evening. I'm going to turn it over to panelists and let anyone, there's one question in the chat I just want to bring up that one of our trainees brought up about speaking about, could you comment on how slash when mindset from grieving and processing to thinking critically about lessons learned and what to do differently next time. When do you think, I'm going to turn it over to maybe Allison or any of our panelists here to discuss that about how do you switch? When does that happen? Or how do you do that? Because there is a grieving reaction and we all have our individual timelines to do that and that may be, that's all dependent on your interpersonal and kind of what you go. But let me turn it over to the panel and answer. I know we're running a little bit behind. So thank you everyone for sticking with us and ask for any comments on that. Yeah, I'll comment on that, Drew. Thank you. Thanks for the question. I think it's a great question and thank you to the speakers. I got a lot out of this. I hope everybody that was listening did and great job. So to answer that question, you know, I think it really depends on the person and on the case. I'll tell you for me, when something really bad happens, I don't sleep for two weeks. I mean, I literally probably get an hour or two of sleep a night. I know that I'm going to be exhausted for a couple of weeks and that's kind of my way of grieving. You know, I need the time to talk to my family, talk to my partners and go through the grieving process before I really can actually sit down and look at the case and say, what could have changed? You know, I think a mistake I've made in the past is trying to, you know, come out of the case, sit down and review it with somebody and try to figure out, well, what the hell happened? What went wrong? And you don't really learn from that. You just kind of beat yourself up when you do that. And so I've made it a rule really to not try to learn anything from it until I feel like I've gotten through the grieving process. And I think that's probably different for different physicians, but that's my way of handling it. Dr. Arvadaya? While I can't agree more with Allison, I can tell you that a colleague of mine who is actually a member of the panel here, Dr. Truong, likes to say very often, sorry, Tam, I'm going to paraphrase you, is that after an event, it's very lonely to be there after an issue. So I can say that we work quite closely together and fairly often. And on the occasional unfortunate event that occurs, it's a godsend to have someone like him be there. He's probably the only colleague I've had in recent years that actually stayed in the lab or gone with me to the OR to follow the patient. We do that. The one piece that I found especially helpful, and this I learned fairly early on, it was given advice towards it, is that it's very valuable if you're early on in your career, but it can occur at any level of your career, is to identify a confidant. Maybe it could be a senior mentor, it could be a colleague close to you in the cath lab, somebody you can talk to. Identify that person up front in your workplace, build a rapport with them, work with them. And then when an event occurs, I was going to say if an event occurs, but let's be honest, it's going to occur. Then obtaining the support and the validation, having that conversation with them at some point and having that support is invaluable. Do this early. Do this after the event once, of course, as Allison has mentioned, you're able to actually cope with it. And focus on gaining insight from the event as opposed to beating yourself up, beating someone else up, or trying to shift blame. And having an outside person, a trusted outside person, give you that standing, give you that foundation is extremely helpful. Yeah, I wrote something, but also, I think it's important to give good feedback too. When you're in a clinic and your colleagues have done some great work to make sure you send positive feedback, just like I was trying to teach my little daughter piano last night. She played like 99 notes correct, and one note was wrong, and she was very upset. And we keep perseverating on one of these events where all these other patients, we were able to help. So we need to be supportive of each other in those scenarios as well. I just wanted to add, I know it's running late. Eunice, this is a really terrific question that you posed, and I agree with what everyone said. I mean, I don't think there's a switch that gets flipped. It's hard to separate your grieving process and your responsibility about learning from the complication. But I also want to just spend a second talking about part of the process of managing the complication or the aftermath of it is documenting. And oftentimes, our thought processes are disturbed to some degree. And so while it's really important after a complication to document more, not less. So you want to document for the purposes of transparency for the patient on their behalf as well as so the family can come back to that. But sometimes what you're thinking may change or you may be more clear the next day or subsequent day. So it's not wrong to add an addendum. If you're so unraveled by the emotions of what happened, it's essential to make sure you document appropriately and in a transparent fashion. That's something that I've learned in my time on this committee, that that really separates those who respond in a mature fashion to a complication versus those who just kind of shut things down and don't talk, that that's actually not helpful. So I would suggest, again, if you need to come back to the documentation after you've had time to process and cope, that's not a wrong thing to do. Awesome, thanks so much. Anyone else on the panel have any final comments? I know we're run over a fair amount, but again, I think it's a valuable topic. And underscores the importance of how to handle complications because they will occur and how to handle the fallout from it. I think we heard a great summaries on from second victim syndrome and from each of the speakers, but also from the panelists. And thank you for all the questions. Anyone else want to make any final comments? Now, I'll say, Drew, for the for the webinar next month, we'll kind of elaborate a little bit on some of these things, second victim syndrome and, you know, dealing emotionally with not necessarily complications, but the stress of our jobs. So stay tuned for that. So if anybody would like to join for that, we'd love to have you there. And thank you again to all the speakers. Fabulous job. Thanks, everyone, for the opportunity. Appreciate it. Thank you, everyone, for the opportunity in joining us. Thank you, the panelists and two amazing speakers, Alison, for arranging this taskforce and meeting it. Thank you to Sky, Alan, for everyone setting this up and for the opportunity. We look forward to the next webinar. Thank you. And have a great night.

grieving process

critical reflection

support system

emotional stress

second-victim syndrome