I do have, you know, one of the questions which is really interesting, especially when you are talking about multiple positions, is how do you turn down an offer without burning the bridge? And maybe we can start with Dr. Skelding on this one. It can be hard, right? So in the very end of my, one of my job searches, I was between two positions and I was pretty, you know, it was pretty clear. I kind of asked both places for a lot of the same things and it came down to, for me taking the job, it came down to what success meant to them and having a clear set of guidelines and also being closer to my family. And so I was just very honest. I was like, I really enjoyed meeting everyone. I liked the group. These were the positive things. I am taking another job because of X and they actually said to me, well, if things don't work out in your final negotiations, please call us, you know, back and let us know if things change. But I think the best policy is truth because, and maybe there's some things you can't, you know, tell them if something bad happens at your end, burn bridges is when the communication isn't clear. And honestly, if you can't communicate with people at that stage, how are you going to communicate with them moving forward and in your other jobs? And so you have to learn how to sort of, you know, put in your big girl pants, if you will, and have an honest conversation. We do have a question in the comments section. So you're told salary is not negotiable and you sign for what is offered. Then you find out that someone else in the same position, both new attendings in the same job is being paid more than you. How do you approach that? Would you wait until your contract is up for negotiation? So maybe Dr. Cotton or anybody really, maybe start off with that question. Yeah, when people say things are non-negotiable, I tend to just ignore that. So to me, it's in negotiating. It might be true, but it might not be true. And I think you probably make your list of what you like, what your desires are. You rank your priorities and you go for it. And if they say, well, you know, everybody makes $400,000, that's not negotiable. Well, if that's too low and you want more, I would just ask, say, can you pay me $450,000? And maybe they can, maybe they can't, but I think the only way to know whether something is negotiable is to try to negotiate it. And I find it to be, you know, sometimes it's non-negotiable, everybody signs the same contract, take it or leave it. That might be true. It might not be true. It doesn't change my approach. I think you rank your priorities and you try to maximize the opportunity. And I would add that there's never anything wrong with asking. I love your attitude that it's non-negotiable, that it's not acceptable. I love that because everything is negotiable and you never take the first offer. And it's so much more than that. Remember, men have no problem going up and saying, I'm worth more. Women have to realize that we are worth just as much and knowing your value and feeling good about that. And sometimes if you just write it down in black and white, that will actually help you feel more confident in what you're doing and being able to approach something like that. And I think prevention is the best therapy for that. There's nothing wrong with saying, am I being paid as well? Am I in the range of where everyone else is? I remember at my first job, because one of the nurses told me that one of the male partners was going to make more than me. So when I went into my negotiation, I was like, is he going to make more than me? Is he going to have more time? I asked very specific questions. I didn't say him, but I said, are any of my partners going to, at the same level as me, be making more money? And I had come in with extra training. So I was like, not do I just not want to be paid what your people coming in are paid, but I think I should be paid more for my training. But I think you need to do that upfront. I think it's always harder to come back and renegotiate. It's always better to do it upfront. And I said something earlier that I wanted to clarify, when I said, who makes the first offer? Because the employers will say, well, what are you looking for? And sometimes they press you on this. I think a good answer is saying, I want to be paid fairly for my education and my degree of experience, and I want to be paid commiserate with the rest of the group, putting those things into context. And I think that that's a reasonable thing to say. I just wanted to add one to that. Sorry, Mr. Cotton, I'll let you go first. I mean, I guess because I'm a lawyer, I tend to be more blunt. But if somebody said to me, how much money are you looking for? I'd have an answer ready. And I wouldn't sell myself short. Once again, I wouldn't say, oh, I was thinking maybe $450 or $500. No, no, no. If somebody says, Cotton, how much money are you looking for? I'd say, if you could pay me $500,000, we're off to a really good start here. I'd give them a number. You want to give them a, because if you know the data, if you've done some background, it's not like you're in there completely blind. I do agree a general negotiating principle is always let the other person give a number first. But I think in this situation, if somebody asked me for a number, and you've done your homework, and you know what's out there, then give them a number at the high end of the range and start there. I think that's a great point. And a lot of times, if you have counter offers, those can also be used as a negotiating point. And the one point that I wanted to make sure we also mentioned is negotiation a lot of times is not just about your job, especially as women, when we're negotiating could be about the family, it could be about placement of a spouse, it could be about placement of a child. A lot of times the negotiation can go beyond your own salary and your own position, and including family as well. But to that question, one thing I would also mention is sometimes there are red flags in a job. And if they have not been truthful and transparent with you, to me, I think that would be a red flag. And I would start questioning, is this somewhere I want to be long term, do I have to have that relationship with them long term, and start looking at other options? Yeah, I agree, but I agree that honesty is a backbone of the relationship. What I have found is there's also, especially in these bigger systems, there's a fair amount of miscommunication, laziness and incompetence. And you have to be sure that it's not one of those, because, you know, they promised you something, the contract says something different. I think it's easy to conclude they're lying to me, they're terrible people, and I'll never work for them. I used to conclude that, but then I realized I was saying it about almost everybody. In fact, I have found that in these big systems, there's just a lot of miscommunication. And I want to be sure that I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. But of course, if they lie repeatedly, then that's a serious problem. And I would also say that as you are looking at different practices, and finding out the right one for you, talk with the business manager, talk with the administrator, ask them how often their contracts have been renewed with payers, ask them the turnover rate of your staff and physicians, ask them things to know if people are worth, if it's worth staying at that practice, and if it's, and if it is indeed progressive, and it can stay alive, because a lot of practices can, and they're happy to tell you that. The other thing is to go back to the place where you were interviewing by yourself with your family and go around a second time. Don't just go in there showing you around, but go around the entire area. Because as other people have said, it's about your family, it's about your lifestyle. And that negotiating has a lot to do with keeping where you want to live, and in a good place. And that's part of the reason women often wind up with less money. You know, when I work with a male client, and I say, what are your priorities, 99% of the time, they say money. Women, much of the time, it's like, well, I want a limited amount of call, I want defined hours, I want, they often have their priorities are often more oriented to their family. And then both parties negotiate, the man focuses on money, winds up with money, the woman focuses on on a manageable schedule, and winds up with that. But if you do a study, you'd be like men are paid more than women. There might be some underlying historical misogyny there. But a lot of it is just what we choose to prioritize. And I've seen my wife do that in her career. She has when we had four kids, they're bigger now, but she prioritized her schedule. And she made less money than her partners. But she got what she wanted. So it's not if both parties get what they want. To me that that's not inherently unfair to either one. Yeah, I do think women are less, yeah, go ahead. I don't think we can put people in boxes. I mean, my husband's a stay at home dad, and I'm the breadwinner and and I am, I want money. So give me more money. And I'll work more call. That's fine with me. But so I don't think we can we can generalize that anymore. Maybe at some points we could. But I think that even if a woman wants to work part time, she should be paid a an incredibly fair part time salary. And she should be able to put boundaries on it. The problem is, is that most women who are hired to work part time are then asked to work 75%, which is not fair. And so I think that women that take part time jobs, which I think is a good option, either at the beginning of your career or the end, and for men as well, if they're the only child and they're taking care of their parents, things like that. I think they need to really keep track of their time and effort. And if they find that they're working more than 50%, they need to go back and, and claw back some of that salary and some of those support things. But I but I think that I will that I was, you know, I had two young kids, they were in school, I was from a community that I lived in, I was going to stay there forever. And women don't change jobs. And I was like, sorry, you're absolutely positively wrong. And I took a different job and I moved my salary and and change things. Well, thank you guys for all these great comments. I am a note that we're at the top of the hour. So we we need to be cognizant, I think of timing. So we do want to make sure that everybody fills out the link that Alan has put in the chat box for CME credit. Thank you to our guests for being here tonight. Thanks for all the great points. We've really enjoyed it. And I think it's been very useful for the attendees. So women, thank you. Thank you, everyone.

job negotiation

salary negotiations

family needs

red flags

gender pay gap