And I just saw Kate briefly, but yes, I was wondering that and then also kind of one of the questions in the chat box is how to deal with a toxic environment when you're there, where a lot of this conversation about coaching kind of comes into play in terms of like, who are your, who are the people you go to? How do you deal with it? So I'm going to throw that one to you because it's so easy. How to deal with the toxic environment is really hard. And it's longer than the conversation you can have on this call. I will tell you if you want, I'll put a plug in for Kate's in my course this summer with CRF, it's called the complications course. It's a two days of nothing but managing complications in coronary and structural intervention. It's very thematic on the complications and about 30% of the talks are on psychology. So we have a medical malpractice attorney who speaks about how to avoid getting sued. We talk about the psychology, you know, 50% of people have a complication of post-traumatic stress disorder. We do a 30 minute conversation on how to deal with a toxic work environment and how to build cultures. So I don't know if I have an answer for you, how to deal with it. I think what you, again, it goes back to building cultures. If you really want to look at how to build cultures, there are three books to read. One is called good to great, which is about how it's an economics book about how to build good cultures of good companies. And you can learn a lot of things about how to do that. Number two is you should read a book called how to win friends and influence others, which is a way about how to engender relationships with people. And the last is a book called nine minutes on Monday, which is a book about how to go from being a manager to a leader. And I think you'll see a lot of themes in there that help to build positive cultures. And those are the things I'd read to try and help you change the toxic environment that you have. I'm sorry that I missed a lot of it. We, I heard little bits and pieces while we were in the case too, but I think it's a great conversation. The, I think that we really do in our field, de-emphasize the importance of coaching and mentorship. And obviously sponsorship is an important piece of all of that too. So I think, you know, I realized that I've got a lot of riches there in our group, but we definitely want to share that. And I think that's the hardest piece is that people feel very stuck only getting that in their own environment. And probably not all of those pieces are ever fully encountered, you know, encompassed just in your own group. So I think we need to start looking elsewhere more and don't be shy. Bill gets called by people all the time. I'm a frequent one when I got stuck today, but I think sometimes it's a technical piece, but there's lots of things of working with industry or someone's being a giant jerk, you know, and like, how do you navigate that? And these guys have all seen that before. And a lot of the ladies on here have experience too. So I think we just need to lean on them more, honestly. Yeah. And I'll make a shameless plug for this guy when I'm mentoring, because I have two mentees right now and that, you know, you just started their jobs and we connected and I, you know, kind of a little bit of accountability on them. How many cases have you done? How many conflicts cases are you doing what you want? How do you, and, you know, there was, they were telling me what the pushback was and we just worked it through. I don't know if I solved their problems, but you just need to be able to talk to someone who's gone through some of that. So I think what the books that Bill also mentioned are important as well. A lot of the things coming through are about finding a job. So I guess that I just didn't know if anyone or Kate, if you had any thoughts about that, I'm just going to quickly look and see. Yeah. I mean, I think we've really talked about it too, how to, how to know if you're stuck, if you're in the wrong job and how long do you give it and things like that. So Kate, do you have any thoughts about kind of the job aspect of finding a job? It does seem like the most critical piece is to have at least one person you're on the same wavelength with. And I think a lot of times we imagine that they need to be in the same technical space and all of that, but I think it's more of that shared like mission type of thing is, you know, goofy as that sounds maybe, but if their risk tolerance and their goals for the growth of the program are in line with yours, then it only really takes one other person. And then I think that culture change, you know, we've talked a lot about takes a couple of years, but you can get there in three to five. And so you kind of have to have an investment. And if there's not at least one other aspect like that there, or if you can't partner with your surgeons or if there's not anybody to link with, then I think that's a lot harder. And I know for me, it was very fearful for the first job that I would just get sort of stuck there and lose my skillset and not have, you know, any of that technical growth for, you know, five or six years seems really daunting. So I, you know, it's obviously hard to tell, but that's sort of the timeline that I gave myself, you know, to whip Bill into shape so that we would be okay. But when I was looking at a lot of other jobs, that was kind of my biggest concern. I don't know what thoughts do you guys have? We do have another question from the panel that I think is interesting because personally I didn't feel the disparity when I was applying for a job. I didn't feel discriminated because I was a woman. Maybe it's a little more difficult to get trained in structural, but I got so much support that I was able to complete my training structure actually during my job. So I wanted to hear what's the experience from our panelists, if they experienced any, if they felt there was a disparity between men and women when they were applying for a job. You know, I personally was fortunate that I did not feel any disparity like that, but I'm well aware that there are plenty of women who do. So, you know, if it happens, know that it is a window into what the practice is. If there is disparity at the time you are interviewing, there's going to be much worse once you join, so just run. But, you know, if the environment is toxic, there's no option except getting out of that environment. Unless the person who's toxic is retiring in the next two years, there's no reason to spend your life in a toxic environment like that. So it can be hard, but either remove yourself, protect yourself, just don't be the recipient of a toxic environment. So I will say coming from a fellows course recently, I got a lot of questions about that, so I think people are still perceiving it. But what I want to say, because I'm listening to all of you, is none of you, I'm sure you all had something happen, but the thing is, it didn't matter because you knew that you're an interventionist, so you were able to kind of like probably just like shake that off, or it may be something as simple as like, oh, do they think that I'm not good enough because I'm asking for a mentor because I'm a woman? And they'll just say, no, it's like it could be because you're a guy. So I think just if you could come away with that on this is that, yeah, there's going to be people who may have a thought in their head, but as long as you kind of go in there and know you're the capable interventionalist, and that's kind of who you are, you can kind of shake a lot of that off. But we don't want to minimize it because I actually don't like when people say, no, there's no difference. You will feel differences. And if there are, just make sure you talk to the right people about it. And we can all help and sky wing to help. That's why we're all here is because we want to make sure that's not going to be an issue. And I think we've made big headway. I was, you know, I've been out 12 years and I can tell you for sure much better now, but we're getting there. I'll fall on the sword a little bit. Like implicit bias is real. Like it exists. It's in all of us. Even the women, like we all have it. It's real. No one gets out of bed and none of our partners or cath lab staff or patients or office staff or anyone wakes up in the morning and says, I'm going to treat the female interventionalist differently because they're a woman, but like things happen to things have happened to every woman who is on this call on the panel. And I'm sure every woman who's listening, who you had an experience in the lab with a patient, you know, and you're like, huh, you know, I heard my male colleague do the exact same thing. And they were called prepared and thoughtful. And I was called inflexible and difficult. So, you know, the it's real. So I think like, don't gaslight yourself is something I'm going to say because I gaslit myself a lot. So don't do that. It's not healthy for you. And realize, you know, there's not a lot of times there's no bad intent, right? There's no, no one wakes up and says, I'm going to treat women differently, but it just happens. It's the way we're programmed in our culture. And I think, you know, making peace with that has been really important for me to kind of moving forward with all of that stuff. So, you know, I think there's definitely a subset of us out there who kind of have these issues and, you know, do a lot of growth in that area. And so it's real. And you're not the only one. So it looks like we're out of time. This was such a great conversation. It could go for hours, but we all are busy interventionalists, nothing else. We have family to go to or some dinner to eat. So thank you so much. I think if there's any unanswered questions, we'll make sure we kind of find a way to get back to you. But everyone have a great night.

interventionalists

toxic work environments

positive cultures

coaching and mentorship

gender disparities