All right, the big one, how do you get support from administration? It says following implementation of the leader, but I think that means maybe once you're in that leadership role. And I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this. Sorry, I got disconnected earlier. My thoughts are get all the support and the negotiating done before you accept the leadership position. Once you've taken the position, it's very hard to negotiate for what you want. So definitely do that upfront. And if those are the conditions that are in place beforehand, then you're more likely to succeed at the position, right? You don't want to be set up for failure, you want to be set up for success. And I just wanted to add, we can also create, we can try to transform and create the culture by being as inclusive as possible, even though others are not meeting by that kind of an example. When I first started, I put all of my colleagues on papers, whether they had contributed much or not, but because they were doing cases, maybe I was allowed to take some of that time to write the paper, or maybe they, I looked at some of their patients and the subset that we were looking at. And that did change things for people a little bit, at least in my group, where they were just like, okay, let's move a little bit away from everyone's out for themselves to let's work a little bit more like a group where one person's success is really everyone's success. And sharing that credit, like Megan had said, it does not take anything away from you. It actually just, rising tide lifts all boats type of a thing. So those were, those are my two cents, but Allison, any thoughts on how to get administrative support once you're in a leadership position? Yeah, I, you know, what I was going to say is very similar to what you just mentioned. I would add that, you know, not only in terms of what you're compensated for the leadership position, in terms of monetary compensation, I think it's important to know how much time you're going to be given to do these leadership roles. Because sometimes you're given a leadership role, and then you don't have any time to do it. And you end up taking time away from family and weekends to do these things. So you need to negotiate time to perform the role during normal hours of work. And then also outlining what exactly the leadership role is going to entail. What is your, what are you responsible for? What are the obligations of that role? In addition to obviously negotiating your, your, the money aspect of it, and which is a very important aspect. And as we all know, women get paid less than men for many things that we do, including careers in cardiology. So ask around, ask colleagues that do similar roles, what they're making, I mean, I think we need to be transparent with one another, right, or we're not going to know whether what we're getting paid is a reasonable amount. So I would keep those things in the back of your mind. Well, I'm thinking a little bit more about your story of allyship. And I think that allyship is really important when you're in a leadership position, because you're starting to branch out beyond the cath lab, beyond cardiology, you're starting to branch out to administrative leaders within the hospital in order to secure funds for your program. And allyship is really important. And it's a give and take. And I think that for many on the call, who are entering into new jobs or who are early employer, there is a hope and a thought that we're in an era in 2022, where we have a lot of allyship. But I would suggest that be cautious about expecting that, because a lot of our colleagues who are men are frightened by being excluded from other men, and it inhibits their behavior. So I thought your story was amazing, Allison. You pull your colleague aside, and you're like, this is some bullshit, right? And they're like, yeah. Wait, let me close the door. Yeah, you should totally do something about that. I am behind you 100%. Okay. And then they open the door. I can't tell you how many of us have had those conversations with our best friends. And you realize, I love you. And also, I see the limit to which you can step forward for me. I really do hope that we can move to a time where we can all step forward for each other. We don't have any African-American women or men on the call right now, but that we can step forward for our colleagues when we see blatant racism occurring or structures of racism occurring, even if we feel like there may be some penalty or retribution against us, that we hope that from our colleagues. And when we get to the leadership level, and we're expecting allyship, it's something that becomes, I think, even more complicated. But I think brainstorming strategically of how we can be allies for others, it is a very give and take. So I'm constantly asking the leaders above me, how can I support you? How can I be an ally to you? How can I speak on your behalf? How can I do things that raise the level of what you're up to? And doing that work, that homework to figure it out, it's not easy, but it's really important. So that would be a way that I would suggest. And you can start that even when you're first in your career. I think you can have conversations on developing and cultivating those allies, too. Just like you have those difficult conversations with those who are making your life maybe difficult, for lack of a better term. You can cultivate allies as well. You can speak with a colleague that you think may have a hope and say, no, I don't know if you noticed this, but this always happens to me. How does this happen? And they didn't notice it, but as soon as they noticed it, and then they start seeing it in meetings more often, they will put, you know, they will suddenly step up as the ally. They just didn't realize. And so I think you can have conversations both ways, both the difficult ones with those who are hurting. And I've had those conversations for sure, just the next day after I've calmed down. And I've never, as Allison's example, I've never had someone when I've been, you know, when I've been able to have those conversations and just sort of explain how I feel, I don't know if I'm lucky or not, but I haven't had someone who took it poorly, you know, maybe inside there they may be, but outwardly at least, it's been okay. And then whether or not someone digests that information in the moment, I do know that somewhere it sticks there. So that maybe like one, even if they're defensive in the moment, just, okay, I just wanted to let you know how, how I felt, you're not going to, sometimes you're not going to change the mind in the moment, but wait a week later, a month later, all of a sudden they're telling someone else that's not appropriate. And that has happened to me where, you know, in the moment they're like, they're all defensive, but like literally two months later, one of our more senior colleagues, you know, is like telling another man, you cannot say that. And I said, well, something I said stuck there, you know, you may not see it right away, but it did stick. So we only have three minutes left, any parting comments, words of wisdom, anything to share? One thing is that when you're negotiating for anything, for a leadership position, for getting more resources, for your own salary, have data, data speaks for itself. So always, you know, do your homework, have the data, you know, like know what the other people that are in the same stage of your career are making in the different institutions. And when you have that, they can't, you know, that happened to me, that they can't say anything because you're like, okay, well, can you explain to me why so then so, and so, and so, and so, and so have this. But to be honest, that wasn't like my idea. So it's important to talk to other people, talk to strong women that can help you, give you ideas of how to strengthen your position when you're negotiating, but data, have the data. Great advice. Any, any parting words of wisdom, Megan? I want to put you on the spot. Yeah, well, I just want to highlight Nisha and Nadia's leadership and how grateful I am that, you know, when I look across this call, I think about this recent paper we wrote on lefty drill appendage operators. And by the way, Allison, yeah, resilience and grit for getting that stuff going. And what we found was that, that more senior career stage, you know, mid fifties, a third of men were in that group. And one woman was in that group. And I look across this group and, you know, we got to stick through, we got to, there's a lot of, we lose women along the way because the journey is challenging. And I just want to give kudos to Nadia and Nisha for leading and for bringing together a supportive environment and sharing best practices. So thank you to you both. Yes. Thank you so much. And thank you for everybody to everybody for participating.

support from administration

negotiating support

leadership position

inclusive and collaborative cultures

allyship in leadership positions